Kids Media Club Podcast - Special guest Simon Pulman

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Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to another Kids Media Club podcast and we've got a good one for you today. I'm here as ever with Emily.

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Speaker 2

Hi, everyone. It's Emily Horgan, kids streaming specialist. And yeah, it is going to be a good one. Tell us about it Andy.

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Speaker 3

hi i’m, Andy. Yeah. So in this episode, we're looking forward to discussing deal making franchises IP and something called averaging engaged time per user with our very special guest, Simon Pullman. Simon, Could you give us a brief introduction?

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Speaker 4

Hello. Thank you for having me. Me on a soundbite. My audio is working now, so that's that's a bonus. I'm a partner at the law firm of Pryor Cashman, and I'm based out of New York City and my practice specializes in entertainment transactions. Primarily company side. So I do a lot of rights, acquisitions, deals of all forms of underlying IP for studios, networks, producers and other similarly situated clients.

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Speaker 4

And then I help them in all stages in getting their their shows developed, financed and produced.

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Speaker 1

You probably the smartest guest that we've had on all that. That's an insult to every other guest that we've had.

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Speaker 4

That that remains to be seen.

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Speaker 1

I think we're already on the back foot since as a viewer.

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Speaker 4

There's nothing worse than right at the start somebody saying this person's really, really smart. Oh, yeah, We'll see about that.

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Speaker 1

Well, I think, you know, certainly for me, you're you're one of the people on LinkedIn that I stop. I don't scroll past because in inevitable I learn something interesting reading your posts, which for me is the whole point of LinkedIn. So, yes, thank you for that. And I also saw your company name in the news just this very day, very timely with the Ed Sheeran case that the prior Cashman's been helping out.

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Speaker 1

So.

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Speaker 4

Yeah, it's absolutely I mean, it's absolutely phenomenal for the firm. I personally had absolutely zero to do it to with it but the music and IP litigation team is is absolutely wild world class and it's an important case for for the music industry and for and for creators and they did a fantastic job on on behalf of Mr. Sharon.

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Speaker 1

It's perhaps a great lead into to the kind of business that we're all in. Right. You know, this the the media and entertainment business is changing so quickly. Right. Frameworks, you know, it's all it's all changing. And you've got creators like Ed Sheeran or you've got others like Mr. Beast, who A, who is so powerful that brands in and of themselves, you know.

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Speaker 1

Have you seen kind of a power shift. Rights wise and in rights frameworks as we enter this creator economy age.

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Speaker 4

It's really interesting because, you know, I went to South by Southwest in Austin in March and they had a pop up installation that was effectively, you know, it was creator focused products. And they did indeed have The Mr. Beast chocolate bars and other products there, which is pretty is pretty staggering. It's not something you really could have conceived of.

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Speaker 4

I think even, you know, ten or 15 years ago, the answer is, I think, you know, yes, with that, with an F or no with A, but because it's highly context specific, You know, I think I think traditional media and sort of wide distribution is still really, really important. If you have a Netflix show or movie, I mean, that can reach millions of people worldwide.

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Speaker 4

But with that said, I do think that that Rightsholders who in certain circumstances do have more power leverage than they had before. And, you know, historically, perhaps if you are a book author, you know, you might have had your property acquired and had been told, you know, thanks very much. We'll take it from here. And I think things have changed a little bit now because certain creators can build a groundswell of community.

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Speaker 4

You know, early on in the creative process.

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Speaker 3

That's really interesting. And I think one of the things that that is less of a signpost and is something that we try and pay attention to on the podcast is how the emergence of kind of new platforms and new creators are kind of challenging the more traditional outposts of media and entertainment. How do you looking at something like gaming, do you think that how has that emerged in the last couple of years as a source of kind of really powerful IP?

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Speaker 3

And I'm thinking of the way the Mario Brothers is kind of transferred to cinema and the and the great success that that has had. Is that an indicator that we're going to see a lot of a lot of sort of gaming brands start to kind of move outside of gaming into other territories?

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Speaker 4

Unquestionably. Unquestionably. And I think there's a couple of factors, you know, to that, you know, game partly it's to do with the experience of gaming and the emergence and of of playing a game of being in in that world and also the inherently sort of social aspect to it in terms of, you know, gamers are I think, unusually engaged with each other, you know, in communities around around the game.

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Speaker 4

Now that's not always the most positive thing, but there's no doubt that if you create something that they love, they will share, that they will talk about it, all those kinds of things. The other side of the coin, in terms of the success of the adaptation, it comes in part with effectively we now have for the first time, in my estimation, a a generation of executive lives in and around the entertainment business and in Hollywood who have grown up with and understand gaming.

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Speaker 4

And that's right across the ecosystem. It's lawyers like myself. It's it's agents, it's studio executives, and perhaps most importantly, it's writers and directors who, you know, for whom it's not just, oh, we bought this thing right? We've heard it's sold a lot of copies. You know, look at the picture on the box. You know, write something, make something up.

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Speaker 4

But actually, people who have played the games, who understand them, who understand the themes, who understand the values and understand the fandom, you know, behind it. And then, you know, and I think maybe a final factor is because video game companies make so much money, you know, at the highest level, at least in the triple-A space, those games are so are so successful in and of themselves.

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Speaker 4

They now can command the level of involvement and approval that that previously perhaps, you know, they would not have been able to to to get. And that is very much the case with, you know, the success stories that everybody is talking about presently, the last of us, where Sony was involved. But also Neil Druckmann, in fact, he co wrote the pilot and directed several episodes and that effectively it's more or less of a bait and retelling of the game and where there are deviations.

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Speaker 4

Well, the sort of authorize because Druckmann is involved. Right? And then of course, you know, Nintendo and to me one of the most striking things about seeing that that movie was just in the opening titles and seeing the Nintendo logo there, seeing, you know, you know, a Chris Melandri and Shigeru Miyamoto production, you know, right there at the forefront of this is is Nintendo and Nintendo clearly had their hand in every aspect of this production They were not going to allow it to deviate from from the brand values of of Mario and what the fans would would expect some critics would say that that leads to perhaps a safe production.

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Speaker 4

I personally loved it. It was everything that, you know, that I would would hope to to see and expect. And I think that's it, you know, without diminishing the the involvement of the actors. And you the vassal and marketing, all of whom did a fabulous job. I do think a big, big factor here was when those parents brought their kids to Mario, when they went to the screening and I saw the whole family dressed in Mario cosplay, they went there and they saw Super Mario.

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Speaker 4

They didn't see something Super Mario name only. They saw Super Mario and they saw the world around it. And they left thinking well about that Donkey Kong movie that could potentially come in the future.

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Speaker 3

That's fascinating. And I when you describing that, I was thinking there've been a lot of lackluster adaptations of video games in the past. There have never really kind of managed to fulfill that promise when they'd got to the screen. And you're probably right, the the gap there was the fact that it was people that didn't really live and breathe those games and weren't fans themselves trying to second guess what was what was the right adaptation for this for the franchise.

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Speaker 4

To second guess what was the right adaptation? Or, you know, if you're being more cynical, you know, wanted to sort of superimpose their own story on top of this, this brand. Well, okay, I guess I have to do this video game thing, you know, because it's the quickest path to it being great, me being paid, but I don't really like it or care about it.

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Speaker 4

But I want to tell this story. And so I'm going to I'm going to do this. You know, that's a cynical take, but I think it's not entirely unfair with respect to certain of the adaptations.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, I think we we spoke about it once before. We think that, you know, in years gone by, I think there was perhaps an inherent snobbery between Hollywood and gaming. And when they had to do these adaptations, it didn't necessarily attract the best writers. But then we entered a space where writing and video games took a huge step forward in terms of narrative.

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Speaker 1

And they we've seen that converge and and look where we are now. We've gone from the slightly dodgy Max Payne and Hitman movies to blockbusters like Super Mario and shows like The Last of US that are up. They're really up there in terms of the quality, though.

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Speaker 2

I love thinking about it because we speak, we've spoken on the podcast before about, you know, in ten years time there's definitely going to be an original IP that that came from ROBLOX ten years ago.

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Speaker 4

Question Oh.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, we all thought that was good. It was quite obvious there was going to be an original IP that came from YouTube, but actually ten years before that was, you know, it's probably about that kind of gaming juncture where gaming was kind of hitting that critical mass of being developed enough, you know, having an of storytelling in it, having that kind of the, you know, the multifaceted universe, all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2

So I actually never thought of it went with what went before.

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Speaker 3

Just picking up on one of the things when you were saying the convergence of stuff is we're also seeing so I've seen the a lot of the animation tools that have developed now are using video game tools. So a lot of the tech that's being shared is being shared across animation for TV and screen as well as animation that's being used as part of the gaming engine.

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Speaker 3

And you're you're having teams and crews that are kind of moving from from one area to the other. And and I wondered whether that production convergence has an implication as well in terms of how these how the adaptations roll out. I mean, if you look at semi arcane, which there's there's real integration there between the teams the worked on the the video game and the Netflix series.

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Speaker 4

Totally and arcane is is is an unquestionable success story very, very critically acclaimed embraced by both the fans of the game and people who just you know I don't play the game but I really, really like the series. I think people would say the same about the CD Projekt Red's Cyberpunk series, which got, you know, which was really well, was really well-received.

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Speaker 4

But this this piece is is is just so fascinating to me because this is kind of potentially where where things are going in the future, which is if you look at Unreal Engine, for example, right. And metahumans and these and these and these tools, it there is going to be a point where it becomes possible to develop game an interactive experience concurrently with linear and effectively use the same the same assets which from a from a franchise building standpoint.

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Speaker 4

Right. We've put aside the technical just for a moment. We talk about creatively. Well, now you don't have necessarily the issue in quite the same way in terms of the workflow of, well, let's do the game first. We don't know, game gets delayed. Okay, Now we wait another three years for that for the movie, but you can potentially sort of start to see these these concepts, which, you know, is sort of the essence of of this word, you know, transmedia that people that that people talk about.

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Speaker 4

And so for that reason, some of the gaming companies might very well become powerhouses in, you know, across linear entertainment and vice versa potentially. And I will say, I mean, you spoke about the linked in at the start. I mean, this is one of the things that I love about about LinkedIn, because through, you know, through those pieces and it's been an outlet for me, I've discovered a lot of people who are thinking similarly about this stuff and they're excited about it.

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Speaker 4

So I learned from from, from, from them. I mean, I had an amazing conversation with a gentleman in Australia, this guy Nathan Badgley, this this week who's in the virtual production space, you know, So he's working with studios and governments to sort of, you know, work with them. And implement these these technologies, I think primarily on the film and television side, but also gaming.

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Speaker 4

But that, as you say, R&D, that's the next that's the next frontier. And it's coming fairly quickly.

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Speaker 1

I think it is, Yeah. And I see a whole new way of working emerging where because there's these technologies at the center for a brand person like me and, and Emily and Andy, you know, that notion of creating wants in the center with the technology that allows you to service so many different types of media and platforms, create once use hundreds of times, whereas it used to be that you had to summarily recreate everything.

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Speaker 1

You had to animate, animate your series. Then you had to go and code your game. You had to, you know it. You can effectively play with Unreal and you know, you can create something in the middle. You can even still output it to two and a half day. You literally move a slider that you can output it to a, you know, a game engine that is that looks slightly different again, but you've only had to create once in the middle.

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Speaker 1

And that's that's fascinating both in terms of cost effectiveness and speed. But it's interesting your point, you know, it actually puts the people that can manipulate that technology, whether it's game studios or those experts, in a huge position of power.

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Speaker 4

And that's it. Joe is as I hear you, as I hear you say that what people because we're talking about technology. But I think the people aspect becomes key in terms of people who can understand this technology and think about the possibilities, but also the clap. I mean, this this feels highly collaborative, doesn't it? You know, across different groups of departments.

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Speaker 2

I suppose it's also that funny that that funny thing of like if you could do everything at once, would you? And I think that's going to be an interesting thing to watch as things go on. Because, Stephanie, within kids, what we see is, you know, putting out everything all at once, like there needs to be a little bit of a build, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2

That there needs to be curation about how it all hits. And I think trying to get that right will be interesting once it's all on the table, you know? But we've always been constrained by production needs and budgets and, you know, that thing of like, oh, well, we could get the game assets in this, but it's going to be an extra How many grand and do we want to make that investment, not knowing if it's coming or not?

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Speaker 2

You know, it's all that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3

Yeah. I mean I, I wonder if one of the ways it might be had any you talk about arcane and about the increased power that the game producers have as effectively is the creator of all of the assets to all then be sort of dispersed across different platforms and different media is whether you're going to start having a situation where the production companies almost have to take responsibility for the marketing of their products in a way that they previously deferred that to the platforms or the networks or the broadcasters or the studios.

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Speaker 3

I mean, we've talked on this podcast before about the challenge, particularly for children's content on a lot of streaming platforms, because it can be a bit like throwing your product into the vortex and it and it just.

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Speaker 4

Can't hundred percent, which is one of.

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Speaker 3

The then is it the production company that needs to be responsible for promoting that.

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Speaker 4

Well And whose budget does it? Does it, does it pull from right to to an extent? And that was the justification sort of back in the day for all of these cross-platform and transmedia experiments is that they came from the marketing budget. But but really, you know, they sort of need to be conceived, you know, concurrently with development.

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Speaker 4

But but that issue about about sort of audience discovery is one of the, you know, the existential dilemmas of the streaming era. I think so many of these companies have the approach of, well, let the algorithm sorted out. The algorithm will, you know, will suffice. But I you know, I think for somebody who works with producers, it's very difficult when, you know, your project just gets gets put up there and then there's no external promotion whatsoever.

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Speaker 4

But again, that that to circle back you ask about, you know, game IP and the like that is why in part, you know look at something that's not necessarily directly technically based on the game but but kind of as part the same the same IP The Witcher Right. The reason The Witcher cut through was because millions upon millions of people are familiar with this brand have played the games.

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Speaker 4

Some of them read the books. But but I think the games, you know, primarily I'm.

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Speaker 1

I have a question about, you know, it's related to gaming, actually. So we've entered an era where kids and young people aren't as happy to just sit and passively consume content anymore. You know, there are times they do. They just want to watch video and chill. But most of the time they want to engage actively with brands and IP, and that's in gaming, that's in kind of immersive media, augmented reality, all of that.

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Speaker 1

But what they also want to do is they they want to mashup brands. You know, kids don't care that Barbie is Mattel and Mr. Potato Head is Hasbro. They might take Barbie's arms off and stick stick them on Mr. Potato Head. You know, this whole teams of brand people that would in days gone by have shuddered about things like that.

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Speaker 1

But actually, given the rise of roadblocks and social gaming platforms like that, where kids do want to mashup IP and collaboration and the things that get them excited, is there is there a sense in in your world that actually those that control brands and those guidelines and those rights are going to have to just ease off a little bit and chill and let let these kind of things happen?

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Speaker 4

So there's no there's no question that for younger generation, their relationship to media and to entertainment brands is a bit different to the generations that came that came before. And this poses a a dilemma for for for rights holders, because on the one hand, for a lot of these companies, you know, the IP is part of it, the sort of the fundamental, the core value of of their companies, they're extremely protective of it in some instances.

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Speaker 4

You know, the IP helps generate billions of dollars across across platforms. On the other hand, you know, people, younger people, perhaps people who are under the age of 18 that they're accustomed to to living and and sort of interacting in platforms like Minecraft and Roblox and Fortnite that are highly social, but also that have sort of a creating a creative aspect to them.

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Speaker 4

So for an IP holder, you effectively have a choice to make, you know, you know to what extent and what degree you're going to you're going to allow and relax, you know, the restrictions around your IP because, you know, on the one hand, you don't want to lose control over it, but on the other hand, if you don't permit this, then either, you know, A that could there's quite likely to be, you know, unauthorized use of IP just because of the way that the world is presently or B, you know, the sort of the notion that perhaps these platforms are going to are going to cede are going to are going to create entirely new

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Speaker 4

IP that's that's native to them and which has it has this kind of level of creativity baked baked in you know, right from from the essence. And yeah, I mean, I'll tell you, we walk with roadblocks creators, you know you know, I have, you know, a client that's creating roadblocks games and the CEO it's about 23 years years of age.

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Speaker 4

I can tell you that his mentality, I think, towards IP is completely different than perhaps, you know, a traditional executive who has who's grown up in the world of, you know, this is this is our IP protected or adult at all costs.

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Speaker 3

It's interesting, isn't it? I kind of I'm struck by as reminded of the way Netflix dealt with Bridgerton, the there was a spoof bridgerton musical and the Netflix were pretty relaxed about it until it got to be such success that they were looking at putting it on Broadway and the West End. And I think it was for them.

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Speaker 3

It was aired crossed over between from being a marketing promotional kind of device for the series to being something that was going to become a commercial kind of venture. And it was at that point the they decided a legal line has been crossed and you can see how maybe that approach in which the anything underneath the sand bar is play and interaction.

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Speaker 3

But as soon as the it kind of moves above that threshold, then then the situation changes. But it's kind of a delicate balance.

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Speaker 4

Yeah, I think that's a fairly a fairly common, you know, approach, which is, you know, now most companies do recognize the value of fan activity and are less sort of punitive. I mean, the other piece, obviously that everybody remembers is the the Stranger Things cease and desist letter that was written in a very creative, creative way that, you know, so to encourage it.

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Speaker 4

But when it becomes commercial, you know, that's a line not all companies, of course. I mean I think broadly Nintendo's position is that what you're doing anything with with IP. But what I can also tell you is that some of these platforms are building are building economies. They're building economies within within the platforms that intend, you know, commercial use.

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Speaker 4

And that with any time you're dealing with like a UGC type project and we've worked on a few, you know, it was a thing for a while when the whole Web3 NFT craze was was going right. The notion of, well, you can buy this and you can and you can also commercialize it to an extent, but it comes, it becomes very, very, very complicated in terms of working out how the revenues are split, how they're accounted and those and those kinds of and those kinds of things.

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Speaker 4

We'll see more of it. But it's so it's extraordinarily complex.

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Speaker 2

I'd love to know. SIMON If you have any advice for creators that are in, you know, in these kind of new media zones at the moment about what they should be thinking about regarding, you know, protecting their IP, future, proofing it, like the things they should be looking to do, the things they should be declining in the early days.

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Speaker 2

It's you know, it's an absolute minefield. Has to be.

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Speaker 4

It is a minefield. And the other piece around this is that some of the people in these spaces are effectively child prodigies. You know, mean there are kids who are 13, 14, 15, who are creating immensely popular experiences within these platforms and, you know, they're not thinking about any of the implications of of this at all. And, you know, it's it's as a lawyer, right?

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Speaker 4

You know, I would obviously counsel everybody to sort of speak with counsel because you have to you have to two things. It two things involved here that, you know, it's concerned about your own potential infringement on third party rights, which clearly, you know, can be, you know, significant in terms of your liability, but then also protecting your original new and original creations.

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Speaker 4

And you know, what is protectable of what you create. How can you protect those rights? Can you register a copyright? Can you and, you know, registered trademarks, these kinds of pieces. But I would say that a large portion of the audience isn't really thinking about about any of these of these things. And, and moreover, it becomes really, really complicated when you have these huge UGC, UGC type ecosystems, when somebody create something and then somebody else builds on top of that and then somebody else builds on top of that, who owns who owns what?

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Speaker 4

You know, it's it's really, really difficult. You know, the easy thing to say as well, the platform who owns everything, right? So it's all assigned back, back, back to them. But, you know, some of those companies would say that's not the spirit of what they're trying to create. So it's it's really, really tricky. A lot of work for lawyers and that's before you even get into, you know, the things like the terms of use and compliance and copper and all of those sorts of sorts of issues.

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Speaker 3

That's fascinating. A name talking about UGC content, it made me think about the situation that we've got coming up pretty shortly, where there's going to be a lot of classic, well, Disney characters. For one, they're going to become in the public domain. And so when that, you know, when Steven by Mickey meets A.I. Tools and UGC platforms is what's the what's the scope for mischief to be made with with classic character IP Well.

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Speaker 2

And as a lawyer, Simon, how would you advise us see why.

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Speaker 4

They always do not do not do the following. That's the disclaimer. Well, I ought to be involved with this claim because I am not a copyright holder. And there are you know, there are many, many people in the copyright society, you know, who are you know, who are much more qualified. We have some fabulous people here at the firm.

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Speaker 4

They say there's a blog. I think it's copyright lately. Is that what I'm thinking of? I will. I will look I will look at that. That up that's run by a lawyer who's very, very knowledgeable and writes about a lot of these issues on on LinkedIn. But but, you know, it's interesting because the public domain piece is, you know, what you may not realize is that a particular work may fall into the it may fall into the public domain.

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Speaker 4

But that does not mean that that entire property or that even that entire character has fallen into the public domain. You know, there have been some sort of studies and perhaps even cases around certain certain facets of these pieces. You know, Sherlock Holmes, you know, for example, is one of the oft cited ones you could look at certain, you know, certain properties like where there's maybe a book and the book, you know, it's come to the public domain.

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Speaker 4

But then there's also a very famous movie that may or may not feature, you know, ruby slippers where certain things may have been created by the movie studio and they are not. So if you want to play in those in those worlds, you know, you definitely need to be a little bit cautious. But it's starting to happen. I mean, everybody's aware, I think, of this Winnie the Pooh horror movie that was that was met with, you know, ostensibly capitalizing on this and, you know, and then, you know, and then the second part of the inquiry is, well, what happens when you feed it into an I and II machine?

00;28;52;09 - 00;29;21;00

Speaker 4

And I don't think anybody really knows about the you know, about what the long term implications of those things are going are going to be. I'm a little bit cautious, frankly, about talking too much about the implications of AI and copyrights, because I think there are unsettled issues relating to, you know, relating to to the sort of the training of training of AI, you know, using copyrighted works and the rest.

00;29;21;08 - 00;29;45;08

Speaker 4

It's a really, really complicated issue. It's coming up obviously in the WGA negotiations at the moment, you know, in relation to the current strike. And what I would my main advice to your audience on that piece is to follow some of the people who are much more qualified than real copyright lawyers, copyright litigators, you know, around this. And then just tread carefully.

00;29;47;20 - 00;29;48;03

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;29;48;16 - 00;29;49;08

Speaker 2

Sage advice.

00;29;51;12 - 00;29;52;26

Speaker 1

Proceed with care yeah.

00;29;53;14 - 00;29;58;10

Speaker 3

I'll I'll share of my Stephen by Mickey kind of idea just for the time being.

00;30;00;00 - 00;30;10;05

Speaker 1

I'm you you mentioned at the top and this that I even wrote it down because I was struggling to remember it the average engaged time per user is that right?

00;30;10;13 - 00;30;11;06

Speaker 2

The pew.

00;30;14;12 - 00;30;16;02

Speaker 1

That's what I have written on my notebook.

00;30;18;29 - 00;30;20;10

Speaker 4

To you.

00;30;20;11 - 00;30;27;11

Speaker 1

I think it's not far off. Tell us a bit a little bit about that.

00;30;28;11 - 00;30;50;25

Speaker 4

Well, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, I just to sort of step back, I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about the the entertainment and media business. And that's I spend, you know, a good 12 hours a day sort of professionally walking on it and doing deals. But effectively, from the moment I wake up to it, it just I'm just I'm this that's the way I've always been.

00;30;50;25 - 00;31;13;03

Speaker 4

I'm passionate about it. I'm fascinated by I think it's such an interesting and interesting time. And so, you know, this was a thought that I think I woke up and I was sort of thinking through and I was I was sort of starting with the notion of, you know, I'm somebody I do a lot of rights deals, a lot of rights deals on the rights holder side, and then in particular on the acquiring side.

00;31;13;03 - 00;31;34;26

Speaker 4

And so I see the way that things play out. I see what people perhaps value or maybe even don't think about things, any kind of a logical, rational way. Very often it's a competitive situation. It's just a race, you know, to compete, to get a particular property without really thinking too much about about the valuation of it. And you know, the starting point was, well, what is that?

00;31;34;26 - 00;32;07;13

Speaker 4

What's the bedrock of something that's really going to have long term value? And I think it's it's something that people really care about. They really care about and want to spend time with and they want to invest in and engage with. And so I sort of started working backwards from that and, you know, just basically wrote the bulk of it on my phone and my notes app as I'm apt to do when I was walking the dog and then just sort of structured it out and put it out as it as an article, people have have responded favorably to it because I think there are a lot of like minded people who are who are

00;32;07;13 - 00;32;28;01

Speaker 4

really thinking about these types of concepts. I think it's superficial a little bit because there are questions about what how do you define engagement? You know, we talk about, you know, we're talking about like total total engagement, right? Average engagement. Well, but what's what what does that mean over time? You know, there are plenty of properties that people engaged with.

00;32;28;10 - 00;32;58;18

Speaker 4

A time in the eighties and nineties, the fallen fallow, you know, So this is like a time factor to it. So all of these these sort of nuances and complications, but it is a very, very superficial level. I think it just distills down really what companies should be looking at and perhaps where they can find value with the market is in finding where communities are starting to coalesce around something where there's real enthusiasm, where people are really, you know, not just passively like, oh yeah, it's fine, I'll buy the ticket, I'll watch the show, you know, half paying attention.

00;32;58;23 - 00;33;06;01

Speaker 4

But they really care about it because I think that's going to be increasingly the foundation of value, especially when you're looking at things that can live across platforms.

00;33;07;16 - 00;33;44;04

Speaker 3

A quick interruption. I need to leave the recording at this point, as you had to go to another meeting. That's just in case anyone thought she'd gone a bit quiet. Now back to the conversation. There's something quite compelling about that argument. I suppose for me as a creative, one of the things that makes me nervous about it is you look at something like Mario Brothers or you look at The Witcher or I think these have been enormous adaptations to screen the the kind of hit the ground running because they've already got an audience there and because it's a legacy.

00;33;45;03 - 00;34;21;23

Speaker 3

IP It kind of it brings everyone to the cinema or to the TV screen if it's Witcher or arcane. But it raises a question for me about, well, one of the Gates Pixar's got an interesting test case with Elementals, which is the that's a that's an original piece of IP that's being created for the screen. Now, I hope that succeeds because I want there to be a world in which we can get big original blockbusters rather than having to have legacy IP.

00;34;21;23 - 00;34;39;21

Speaker 3

But do you think there's do you think there's space for that now or do you think we're now in a in a kind of a world where people are going to go for that safer bet, which is maybe an adaptation from a video game? What does it mean for somebody that wants to make original content for the screen for kids?

00;34;39;22 - 00;35;11;22

Speaker 4

Yeah, and I really, really hope I hope that that there is, you know, that we that we get to the movies based on spec script and big new you know works of fiction and the like it has to be that's that's the lifeblood of the of the industry. You know you have to appreciate a little bit I'm coming from a from a from a particular perspective insofar as I represent companies that are looking to identify, you know, IP or concepts or scripts that they can then that they can then sell.

00;35;12;02 - 00;35;37;13

Speaker 4

And, you know, I, I still happen to think that video game, for example, are undervalued. I would you know, I would certainly think that most triple-A video games are more valuable than, say, an unpublished book manuscript. But but but there are a few a few caveats to that. One is that I'm not creative right? I don't really have any sense of that.

00;35;37;13 - 00;35;59;17

Speaker 4

I have no taste. I have no you know, I have like and so much of the key to this is there are people who I have seen it. There are people who can identify taste and talents. Right. That is the hallmarks of a remarkable executive. They really can and they can encourage it and shepherd it. Yeah, I can't do that.

00;35;59;17 - 00;36;19;27

Speaker 4

Well, I can see what you know, what I can see is it's sort of, you know, obvious to me, inefficiencies in in the marketplace. You know, the other of the more speculative pieces on the other end, which is, well, okay, you know. Yeah. And you know, anybody most people can see that Mario and Zelda and Elden ring and these things are huge, right?

00;36;19;27 - 00;36;41;03

Speaker 4

It's, it's sort of it's no brainer, but but can you apply this kind of thinking to independent games, to independent authors, Right. So, you know, I mean the old you know, this has happened a little bit. You look like something like a platform like Wattpad where somebody was very smart and bought the kissing booth right out of there because presumably that was they saw something there.

00;36;41;11 - 00;36;59;19

Speaker 4

And it's to me, it's never just about the story. It's never just about with it. There are many more factors that go into it. Original concept Is there a role we can cast for somebody you know, Does this talent like Willis direct it, direct it? But also is that, you know, is there a you know, can we can we create a world out of it and do more stuff?

00;36;59;28 - 00;37;30;00

Speaker 4

But then, you know, is there community around That is one is one of the factors. So I'm not taking a particular sort of perspective on that. Nothing would make me happy, happier, frankly, than to see a whole slew of amazing original ideas, both as a as a as a viewer and as a professional in the industry. You know, So and this is always the danger, you know, because I hope that people think that the things I write are thoughtful and considered and everything else.

00;37;30;00 - 00;37;49;10

Speaker 4

But I would also, by the same token, certainly not encourage people to take as gospel because, again, that puppy started as the musings of a man. He woke up at 6 a.m. and started thinking about that photo on his phone while he was walking his dog. So this isn't like a HD study, you know, it's a germ of an idea.

00;37;50;01 - 00;38;09;03

Speaker 2

Well, I just because I'm kind of looking into this year or the next calendar year is kind of like the the year of the original, because don't we have originals coming from all of the major animation studios? We have migration coming from illumination and we have Elemental, we have Wish, and there's something coming from DreamWorks that escaping my memory right now.

00;38;10;05 - 00;38;21;21

Speaker 2

So you have to believe, you have to believe. I don't think you can work in entertainment and not believe that original IP can go through. We saw it with Encanto. Encanto was what was brand new.

00;38;21;21 - 00;38;39;14

Speaker 4

Marvelous. I mean encounters. Yeah. And then the live stage show that they sort of did offer Disney Plus and everything else and that will go into live attractions and everything else I'm sure. But yeah, I think Emily you know this is where this is the hope, right, for folks for that, because we've had Super Mario brought families back.

00;38;39;19 - 00;39;01;23

Speaker 4

You know what made over $1,000,000,000 worldwide may make significantly more. But for me, about moviegoing in particular, it's about habits. You know, it's about the habit routine of going to the theater. So, yeah, I really, really, really hope that that's looked at not as like an anomaly, you know, it was this massive it was this massive sort of success.

00;39;01;23 - 00;39;29;12

Speaker 4

Just because people love loved Mario and loved Nintendo. But then it was sort of like, you know, was this this earmark in the same way, that sort of Top Gun or John Wick four on the sort of, you know, the blockbuster you stage in It did that. But it was sort of the the thing was like, yeah, And then they saw the trailers in front of the movie and they were like, yeah, that was it was really, really fun to get out of our house, to go together as a family to this to this multiplex and be in the company of other people and react to this movie.

00;39;29;21 - 00;39;51;22

Speaker 4

You know, I really, really hope so. You know, because that's you know, that's been one of the really, really interesting things, I think, over the last 12 months, is seeing this sort of this pivot and this realization. And then like I'll say, prove me wrong a little bit that people don't just want streaming, it seems, but they want to get out, too, you know, And then you have a big theatrical and then guess what?

00;39;51;22 - 00;39;55;14

Speaker 4

People will believe the buy the movie, see on streaming and everything else.

00;39;55;14 - 00;40;13;22

Speaker 2

So yeah, and what we see is actually the theatrical release doesn't necessarily decay, the streaming, the streaming performance, at least on kids so much. Yeah. Though the future at the future has to be more than Cocomelon The movie which was rumored this week to be picked up by DreamWorks.

00;40;13;22 - 00;40;14;17

Speaker 3

Oh my gosh.

00;40;15;13 - 00;40;15;23

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00;40;16;07 - 00;40;30;16

Speaker 4

And that stability, right. Given the size of the size of of of the brand. But but yes it's very, very intriguing to see how that turns out.

00;40;31;08 - 00;40;53;04

Speaker 3

Yeah. I mean, I wonder because I'm so nervous about the the summer of originals just because I'd like them all to kind of hit and and prove any of my misgivings wrong. I think there's a there's a risk that I actually don't think the studios marketing game for a lot of recent animated movies in particular has been particularly strong.

00;40;53;04 - 00;41;19;03

Speaker 3

I don't I, I think the the the movie the movies that have come out of DreamWorks, out of Disney and Pixar recently, I think they got lost in the noise a bit and then managed to kind of really break through. And I think what they're competing against with stuff like Mario Brothers is that you can almost take your average time per user as that's kind of marked in equity.

00;41;19;03 - 00;41;38;03

Speaker 3

That's kind of something that's been invested in to that product. So so if you're going to have an original, you've got to have the same it's got to really be on its A-game in terms of how those shows are being marketed. And they're going to have to be kind of bold and original in the terms of the way they approach those marketing.

00;41;38;03 - 00;41;43;14

Speaker 3

And I feel like they've been quite formulaic the way those movies have been marketed.

00;41;43;14 - 00;41;45;28

Speaker 2

The marketing, you feel like they didn't believe in anything either.

00;41;46;03 - 00;41;48;01

Speaker 3

Yeah, it did. It did.

00;41;49;02 - 00;41;59;23

Speaker 2

Yeah. Right. Agree with another great example of where like obviously the marketing that like this totally took off in a major way. So yeah, yeah. You really need to double down when it's original and you need to believe in it.

00;42;00;06 - 00;42;16;21

Speaker 3

One question that I'd like to kind of to kind of finish up with this to see whether you, whether you've got any crystal ball guys in powers that you can talk about what we should be looking out for in terms of franchises and and deal making in the future.

00;42;17;20 - 00;42;43;15

Speaker 4

Gosh. Well I only full makes makes makes predictions you know in the in the sort of the short term to medium term. You know, we've been talking about this in the video game adaptation theme. I think that some of them are going to be really disappointing. I think, you know, not not, not, not, you know, just not going to perform.

00;42;43;15 - 00;43;14;05

Speaker 4

But I also think that that's not going to disprove the concept. I think we're going to see more huge successes. And, you know, based upon the things that that I know and then I'm aware about it coming in the pipeline, I think there are going to be some more massive successes in that in that space. You know, the beyond that, I you know, we've talked about about some of it, which is I just I think in the longer term, really we're going to see more IP, more value coming out of these online online experiences.

00;43;14;29 - 00;43;38;26

Speaker 4

And we're going to start to see things coming out of online platforms like roadblocks and even, you know, within Fortnite and becoming and becoming, you big brands. We've seen that a little bit on the merchandizing, you know, and consumer products side. But I think that's going to that's going to grow that's going to grow out. You know, hard for me to sort of pinpoints, you know, specific properties or franchises.

00;43;38;26 - 00;43;46;26

Speaker 4

I do have some you know, I do have some some ideas, but I'll keep my cards close to my chest that curses.

00;43;47;06 - 00;43;53;02

Speaker 3

I was hoping you were going to be able to point us in the direction to the video game. That will be the next mega-hit.

00;43;53;14 - 00;44;00;13

Speaker 4

Oh, well, we'll we'll see. But let let me let me put it back on to you because I'm curious as to as to your thoughts and predictions.

00;44;02;18 - 00;44;31;16

Speaker 3

I mean, I broadly I agree with with your kind of analysis, the video games and online is going to be the space in which a lot of franchises are going to be born. And I yeah, I'm hoping for a surprise hit from one of the originals that come out. I think the quality is going to be good, but I, I would hesitate to make any big bets on it really.

00;44;32;18 - 00;44;33;11

Speaker 3

How are you, Emily?

00;44;33;27 - 00;44;58;03

Speaker 2

I mean, I'm still on this. This is my my go to crystal ball is Roblox will have produced a come cocomelon in the next ten years but also sometimes on this like video game adaptation to traditional media format conversation. I'm kind of like I don't love that narrative right now. Like, I don't I don't love the fact that they're saying, Oh yeah, now suddenly last year, my brothers look, they've proven it's possible.

00;44;58;03 - 00;45;17;13

Speaker 2

I feel like they're, you know, first of all, as inclusive as the Mario Brothers are really, really, really different use cases. I think, you know, one is a kid and family for quadrant targeted IP that has a massive heritage and it's just such a different prospect to the Last of US, which is, you know, very grown up, very adult.

00;45;17;13 - 00;45;42;13

Speaker 2

It had a successful it had a successful TV series, you know, but a movie, a game and a TV series like, okay, what's next year? What's the next iteration? Yeah, I'm not saying that there won't be, but that's a quite, that's still quite nascent in a franchise lifecycle point of view, I would say. Plus I think, you know, video games have there's been other adaptations and you know, successful I don't know like critic worthy.

00;45;42;13 - 00;46;01;17

Speaker 2

Okay maybe people didn't love Street Fighter to the movie. I loved it when I saw when I was a kid and it was a great extension of a game that I really enjoyed. And I probably my brothers probably had the had the toys, had the six inch toys and the t shirt and whatever. And, you know, it's easy to look it's very easy to look back on a movie from the nineties and say it wasn't very good.

00;46;01;23 - 00;46;05;29

Speaker 2

But actually in the moment I I'd love to run that analysis well and look the box.

00;46;05;29 - 00;46;43;08

Speaker 4

Office and a new one coming and it's going to be really interesting so let's compare and contrast Yeah those go but but you're you're absolutely spot on and I yeah I will say I'll be quite interested to see how when the next iteration of Lost does a mario come out. You know if if and to what extent I mean I mean I mean the game the games themselves if and to what extent you know the linear adaptations that have drawn new new gamers new players to to those games is a question because you talk you know, because you you know, you alluded to marketing and everything else and, you know, you guys are much more

00;46;43;08 - 00;47;07;18

Speaker 4

expert the means of the kids and family space. I'm very curious, you know, one of the productions, the big bets of this year that I'm you know, I'm the most curious about performances, The Little Mermaid live action adaptation. I personally, you know, I thought some of them have been decent. The Lion King, I think, you know, I think many people would agree, took a lot of the vibrancy out of the original thing, even though that, you know, from a CGI perspective was phenomenal.

00;47;07;24 - 00;47;10;17

Speaker 4

I mean, what you what your thought on the outlook for that for that movie.

00;47;11;28 - 00;47;29;25

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I was at Disney for the time when those derivatives are kind of started started rolling out the first being Cinderella, which I think is the most underrated of all of them. And I actually was probably the most attentive to a very old movie and an update that was very like Kenneth.

00;47;29;25 - 00;47;30;05

Speaker 3

Branagh.

00;47;30;05 - 00;48;09;25

Speaker 2

Really energized. Yeah, Yeah, it was great. It was really sweet. And then, yeah, I think like there is I think they've lost they have lost their way a bit over the years with, with how spot on they got them not to be. The beast is as good And although it was a huge hit because Emma Watson and the results to it that kind of held it up and the Little Mermaid that the hype is the hype is obscene and the the colorblind casting, etc. is just gorgeous and they need to not get it wrong because if they get it wrong, I think that would be a nail in the coffin of live a live action

00;48;09;25 - 00;48;34;15

Speaker 2

adaptation at that kind of scale. It'll just be like, Well, listen, as you know, if if you're going to build something up that much and take something that beloved, because Little Mermaid isn't that isn't that old, you know, And I think that is maybe one of the the challenges with Beauty and the Beast. It's like it's not it's not in need of new breath is is still very beloved is still very washed my kids so yeah they need to get it right otherwise.

00;48;34;15 - 00;48;39;17

Speaker 4

It's just fabulous. I mean that that run they had for about date is just it's just incredible.

00;48;40;10 - 00;48;43;27

Speaker 2

Yeah. The second coming of Walt Disney Animation Studios for sure. What do you think Andy.

00;48;43;27 - 00;49;04;05

Speaker 3

And I yeah I think it has to have some kind of imperative behind it. Beyond we're going to make it look like live action. There has to be there has to be a reason that your retell in that story in a different way beyond just the way it looks. I think in The Beauty and the Beast was was for me.

00;49;04;14 - 00;49;33;06

Speaker 3

We're going to take exactly the same story and just we're going to just tell it in live action but didn't add anything to it. And it's in some ways it is undermines part of the Disney brand. I think sometimes when they do it wrong because it makes it look like they don't feel like animation is quite serious enough or is kind of or is enough that we need to then we need to then tell the story in live action.

00;49;33;08 - 00;49;57;12

Speaker 4

Thank you, Andy, because that you've prompted the animation continues to grow animated, continues to grow its crunchy worlds. Well trolls world and we're just living in it that is that's a really, really interesting thing and I have to say like out coming out like the last award season, everything else. I love this, this notion that animation, you know, isn't a genre, right?

00;49;57;12 - 00;50;15;25

Speaker 4

It's it's, it's a it's a form of storytelling. I thought that Pinocchio was absolutely fabulous. Yes. I think I think we'll see more and more, you know, growth in animation and just just sophisticated storytelling and really interesting things. I just, you know, and I you know, I love I love get animated, you know, show or or movie.

00;50;16;23 - 00;50;32;29

Speaker 3

Yeah, absolutely. Great. Well, I think that's a good place to end it. Thanks very much, Simon. It's been it's been brilliant. It's been really good to be able to kind of pick your brains and get your insight on a variety of things. But yeah.

00;50;33;24 - 00;50;36;25

Speaker 4

Thanks very much. Thank you so much for having us.

00;50;37;21 - 00;50;39;20

Speaker 2

It's great you.

00;50;42;04 - 00;50;49;24

Speaker 3

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